(OT??) weird PC fault

[Mike Scott]

My now ancient desktop - a Novatech box based on a Gigabyte GA-B75M
i5-3450 - has the oddest problem. It's a very long-standing one - been
there for years off and on; mercifully more off than on.

When powering up, the (PSU?) fan will sometimes come on at full pelt. It
will then either just sit there like that, or spontaneously restart
within a few seconds. Usually no video signal in this state. Then
repeat. Occasionally, it will restart with a lower fan speed, and
sometimes even reboot properly. Just sometimes, I get a partial BIOS
screen appearing.

There's 5V on the USB outputs, and the network port is flashing correctly.

The odd thing is that once it's booted, it's fine.

I tried replacing the PSU some years ago, which cured things for a bit,
but the problem returned after several months. Replacing the /original/
PSU effected a cure this time. For more months. So not, probably, a PSU
issue.

Historically, I've just left it for an hour or so with the mains off,
and that used to put things right. Not yesterday. The fault was hard all
day and this morning. Swapping out the PSU had no effect.

Today, I pulled the two expansion cards. Booted properly. Power off and
restart. Perfect. Fault must presumably lie on one of the cards then.
No; I replaced one; instant failure. Pulled it again - still failing.
Therefore not the cards. I've reseated all the contacts, looked for
leaky capacitors (can't see any to leak!).

It eventually "agreed" after a few mains power cycles to start, and I'm
using it to post this.

Any thoughts please on where to look would be most welcome.

Thanks.

[Andy Burns]

Post by Mike Scott
My now ancient desktop - a Novatech box based on a Gigabyte GA-B75M
i5-3450 - has the oddest problem. It's a very long-standing one - been
there for years off and on; mercifully more off than on.
When powering up, the (PSU?) fan will sometimes come on at full pelt. It
will then either just sit there like that, or spontaneously restart
within a few seconds. Usually no video signal in this state. Then
repeat. Occasionally, it will restart with a lower fan speed, and
sometimes even reboot properly. Just sometimes, I get a partial BIOS
screen appearing.

Try with some memory removed/swapped. Does CMOS battery need replacing?
Disable any overclocking features, or auto-recovery features in BIOS.
See if any BIOS upgrade is available.

[Mike Scott]

Post by Mike Scott
My now ancient desktop - a Novatech box based on a Gigabyte GA-B75M
i5-3450 - has the oddest problem. It's a very long-standing one - been
there for years off and on; mercifully more off than on.
When powering up, the (PSU?) fan will sometimes come on at full pelt.
It will then either just sit there like that, or spontaneously restart
within a few seconds. Usually no video signal in this state. Then
repeat. Occasionally, it will restart with a lower fan speed, and
sometimes even reboot properly. Just sometimes, I get a partial BIOS
screen appearing.

Try with some memory removed/swapped.  Does CMOS battery need replacing?
 Disable any overclocking features, or auto-recovery features in BIOS.
See if any BIOS upgrade is available.

Thanks for the ideas. But I've had the battery out and checked; there's
no overclocking. Memory has been out and back (no difference - in fact I
upgraded it all a year or so back, the problem was there ages before
that change). And the BIOS is so ancient there won't be upgrades. I
can't see that that would go intermittent though anyway; but I suppose I
should see if the backup BIOS will boot correctly next time.

I do wonder about a poor joint somewhere; but it would be almost
impossible to find. It could explain why replacing different bits gets
it to work for a while (gets bashed about), and why just waiting can do
the same (thermal expansion maybe?).

[Mike Scott]

Post by Mike Scott
My now ancient desktop - a Novatech box based on a Gigabyte GA-B75M
i5-3450 - has the oddest problem. It's a very long-standing one -
been there for years off and on; mercifully more off than on.
When powering up, the (PSU?) fan will sometimes come on at full pelt.
It will then either just sit there like that, or spontaneously
restart within a few seconds. Usually no video signal in this state.
Then repeat. Occasionally, it will restart with a lower fan speed,
and sometimes even reboot properly. Just sometimes, I get a partial
BIOS screen appearing.

.......

I've taken the easy route and ordered a new machine(*).

But this one still puzzles me - it's so close to working OK. I managed
after several power cycles to boot it yesterday, and it ran perfectly
well all day. I shut it down last night and immediately tried to restart
it.... no luck; yet today it came on first go.

I've tried the backup BIOS without improvement; I've changed the cmos
battery; I've been through the 'restore bios from backup' procedure.
I've unplugged the two expansion cards, no change. All very frustrating.



(*) which of course has no PCI slot, so my
ancient-but-still-perfectly-functional SCSI GT-5000 scanner won't have
anything to plug into. Oh well. :-{

[Abandoned Trolley]

Post by Mike Scott
(*) which of course has no PCI slot, so my
ancient-but-still-perfectly-functional SCSI GT-5000 scanner won't have
anything to plug into. Oh well. :-{

There are things for sale on eBay ( like this:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/145192969996 ) which claim to be PCIx to PCI
converters, although you might have a bit of a problem fitting one in
the case.

I would be interested to know if you manage to get one to work as I have
a similar problem with a sound card.

Alternatively there are some PCIx adaptors around for the various
flavours of SCSI

All may not be lost ....

[Mike Scott]

Post by Abandoned Trolley

Post by Mike Scott
(*) which of course has no PCI slot, so my
ancient-but-still-perfectly-functional SCSI GT-5000 scanner won't have
anything to plug into. Oh well. :-{

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/145192969996 ) which claim to be PCIx to PCI
converters, although you might have a bit of a problem fitting one in
the case.
I would be interested to know if you manage to get one to work as I have
a similar problem with a sound card.
Alternatively there are some PCIx adaptors around for the various
flavours of SCSI
All may not be lost ....

Thanks for the note. I'd not seen the pci-e to pci converter - but I
can't at all see how the pci backplate can fit securely. But I'll think
about that one.

I did look up scsi cards many moons ago, but IIRC they seemed to cost
similar to (or more than) a new scanner.

[Abandoned Trolley]

Post by Mike Scott
Thanks for the note. I'd not seen the pci-e to pci converter - but I
can't at all see how the pci backplate can fit securely. But I'll think
about that one.

Thats what I meant by "although you might have a bit of a problem
fitting one in the case"

[Mike Scott]

Post by Abandoned Trolley

Post by Mike Scott
Thanks for the note. I'd not seen the pci-e to pci converter - but I
can't at all see how the pci backplate can fit securely. But I'll
think about that one.

Thats what I meant by "although you might have a bit of a problem
fitting one in the case"

I know :-}

I've ordered a similar item from aliexpress. £8 including sloth shipping
from china. (I think the one you gave on ebay was also shipped from
there) Be interesting to see how (if?) it works.

[Theo]

Post by Mike Scott
I've taken the easy route and ordered a new machine(*).
But this one still puzzles me - it's so close to working OK. I managed
after several power cycles to boot it yesterday, and it ran perfectly
well all day. I shut it down last night and immediately tried to restart
it.... no luck; yet today it came on first go.

Such things are often a sign of bad capacitors. Usually in the power
supply, but you've said you replaced that. So I'd be looking at the caps on
the mainboard - in particular, any with signs of bulging or leakage?

There was a 'capacitor plague' where a lot of caps were filled with bad
electrolyte and many of them failed, but that was mid 2000s so yours sounds
too new for that.

Post by Mike Scott
(*) which of course has no PCI slot, so my
ancient-but-still-perfectly-functional SCSI GT-5000 scanner won't have
anything to plug into. Oh well. :-{

It's disappointing that there are no USB to SCSI adapters, because SCSI
isn't fast and many of the devices could be translated to USB devices
(scanners, hard drives, CDs, etc).

There are some projects for a Raspberry Pi or similar to pretend to be a
SCSI hard drive, for plugging into old computers. I did find one (can't
find the link now) that had some support for going the other way (ie plug in
SCSI drive to Pi, and Pi can access its data), but don't think I saw one for
talking to scanners.

Theo

[Andy Burns]

Post by Theo
It's disappointing that there are no USB to SCSI adapters

I think they're all in landfill, this one looks like it's been dug-up

<https://ebay.com/itm/134721516952>

[Abandoned Trolley]

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Theo
It's disappointing that there are no USB to SCSI adapters

I think they're all in landfill, this one looks like it's been dug-up
<https://ebay.com/itm/134721516952>

assuming that the $398 + shipping is not enough of a deterrent ?

[Mike Scott]

Post by Abandoned Trolley

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Theo
It's disappointing that there are no USB to SCSI adapters

I think they're all in landfill, this one looks like it's been dug-up
<https://ebay.com/itm/134721516952>

assuming that the $398 + shipping is not enough of a deterrent ?

Perhaps it's the tasteful brown custom decoration that costs?

[Theo]

Post by Theo
There are some projects for a Raspberry Pi or similar to pretend to be a
SCSI hard drive, for plugging into old computers. I did find one (can't
find the link now) that had some support for going the other way (ie plug in
SCSI drive to Pi, and Pi can access its data), but don't think I saw one for
talking to scanners.

Found it:
https://github.com/ZuluSCSI/ZuluSCSI-firmware

but the 'initiator mode' is only for reading drives. Which is not to say
somebody couldn't add scanner support.

Unless the scanner is particularly special, I'd just replace with a USB
scanner. Could be worth it for pro scanners though - I've seen some for
sale that include a 'free' SCSI Mac as part of the package.

Theo

[Mike Scott]

On 22/11/2023 21:33, Theo wrote:
....

Post by Theo
Unless the scanner is particularly special, I'd just replace with a USB
scanner. Could be worth it for pro scanners though - I've seen some for
sale that include a 'free' SCSI Mac as part of the package.

It's not special, nor fast, nor even high-res these days. But it's built
like a tank and still going strong after I forget how many years - CNET
has windows drivers dated 1999, so it could well be over 20 years old.

But yes, any scsi interface these days seems to cost more than a new usb
scanner.

I nearly ordered a cheapish Canon (LiDE 400) with the new machine, but
doubts over linux support lingered. I'll see what the pcie-to-pci riser
looks like first.

Post by Theo
Theo

[Andy Burns]

I'll see what the pcie-to-pci riser looks like first.

You can get PCIe to PCI converters, which are in two parts joined by a
USB3 cable (nb the connection isn't actually USB, it's just a convenient
cable type fast enough for 1x PCI lane) so you can position the slot
somewhere different within the case e.g. a drive bay using double sided
stick foam tape, or some meccano brackets.

e.g. <https://ebay.co.uk/itm/126069579654>

The bridge chips will likely be the same as would exist on an older
motherboard with mixed PCI/PCIe

[Theo]

Post by Andy Burns
You can get PCIe to PCI converters, which are in two parts joined by a
USB3 cable (nb the connection isn't actually USB, it's just a convenient
cable type fast enough for 1x PCI lane) so you can position the slot
somewhere different within the case e.g. a drive bay using double sided
stick foam tape, or some meccano brackets.
e.g. <https://ebay.co.uk/itm/126069579654>

That's neat. If you have an mATX board in an ATX case there may be 3 spare
slots you can put the daughterboard next to. Or string the cable over to a
spare PC case if you have one lying around - it looks like the PCIe to 'USB'
adapter card has a slot for the cable to exit the bracket.

Post by Andy Burns
The bridge chips will likely be the same as would exist on an older
motherboard with mixed PCI/PCIe

ASM1083 in that listing - ASMedia chips are usually fairly solid.

Theo

[Mike Scott]

Post by Andy Burns

I'll see what the pcie-to-pci riser looks like first.

You can get PCIe to PCI converters, which are in two parts joined by a
USB3 cable (nb the connection isn't actually USB, it's just a convenient
cable type fast enough for 1x PCI lane) so you can position the slot
somewhere different within the case e.g. a drive bay using double sided
stick foam tape, or some meccano brackets.
e.g. <https://ebay.co.uk/itm/126069579654>
The bridge chips will likely be the same as would exist on an older
motherboard with mixed PCI/PCIe

Noted for future reference; thanks.

[Daniel James]

Post by Mike Scott
But yes, any scsi interface these days seems to cost more than a new usb
scanner.
I nearly ordered a cheapish Canon (LiDE 400) with the new machine, but
doubts over linux support lingered. I'll see what the pcie-to-pci riser
looks like first.

Like you, I had an Epson scanner that came with its own PCI SCSI card,
and then 'upgraded' my PC to something with no PCI slots. I had rather
assumed that an odd PCI slot on the side next to the PCIe slots would be
standard for eternity ... but life moved on.

I can't speak for Canon devices, but ...

I was seduced into upgrading to an Epson Perfection 750 USB (and
firewire - remember that?) scanner. It is supported under Linux to the
extent of having an Epson-provided SANE driver that can be used by all
the usual Linux scannery things as well as a basic Epson scan utility
that works quite nicely, but lacks some of the image processing featres
of the Windows version.

Tte Epson Scan tool for Windows is pretty nice to use, though, and the
scanner came with a bunch of third-party Windows-only software, some of
which is not terrible, so I tend to use the scanner on an old Windows
box anyway (but not an old enough box still to have PCI slots).

It's a nice scanner, but I find that the quality of most of the old
photographs I wanted to scan isn't so high that I need all that
resolution. The detail in many of my old Dad's colour slides can be
captured at only about 72dpi :-(

[Abandoned Trolley]

Post by Daniel James
It's a nice scanner, but I find that the quality of most of the old
photographs I wanted to scan isn't so high that I need all that
resolution. The detail in many of my old Dad's colour slides can be
captured at only about 72dpi :-(

If the slides are mounted then its possible that you will get quite
acceptable results using a slide copier attachment for a SLR / DSLR

I bought one of these from Jessops ages ago and it was originally to fit
on my Olympus OM, but since then I have bought an adaptor which allows
me to stick it on my Canon DSLR

(Alternatively, I have heard of people improvising with a bit of
cardboard tube from a kitchen roll)

Theres a bit of faffing around to get the lighting and exposure evenly
balanced, but at least you are not wasting any film.

By comparison, negative / slide scanner attchments seem to be a bit hit
and miss

[Daniel James]

Post by Abandoned Trolley
If the slides are mounted then its possible that you will get quite
acceptable results using a slide copier attachment for a SLR / DSLR

They are ... and I used to copy slides in that way (using a bellows
attachment for an SLR) in the Good Old Days. Now it's easier/quicker to
put 12 slides at once into the slide holder for the Epson scanner and do
the lot in one go, and I find the results are better.

The trouble is that the slides aren't all that sharp. Dad's diabetes
ruined his eyesight and even with a nice microprism focusing screen he
found it hard to get it right.

[Mike Scott]

On 23/11/2023 08:40, Mike Scott wrote:
.....

Post by Mike Scott
I nearly ordered a cheapish Canon (LiDE 400) with the new machine, but
doubts over linux support lingered. I'll see what the pcie-to-pci riser
looks like first.

Well, it came. The riser, that is. Pretty speedily too from China.

I assume the electronics would install one. It's mechanically impossible
to insert a PCI card into the adapter, because the two backplates would
interfere with the PCI card inserted into the adapter's socket.

I did wonder when I saw the original image on the web, so I'm not
surprised; just disappointed at what seems a noddy design error.

Oh well. Ali-X do seem to offer a returns procedure. Should be interesting.

[Andy Burns]

Post by Mike Scott

Post by Mike Scott
I nearly ordered a cheapish Canon (LiDE 400) with the new machine, but
doubts over linux support lingered. I'll see what the pcie-to-pci
riser looks like first.

Well, it came. The riser, that is. Pretty speedily too from China.
I assume the electronics would install one. It's mechanically impossible
to insert a PCI card into the adapter, because the two backplates would
interfere with the PCI card inserted into the adapter's socket.
I did wonder when I saw the original image on the web, so I'm not
surprised; just disappointed at what seems a noddy design error.

You can get a flexible PCIe 1x extension that should overcome the
mechanical issue if your case has a spare slot that's away from the
motherboard (or you don't mind a blutack and rubber-band approach).

<https://amazon.co.uk/dp/B0C9T9L99V>

Post by Mike Scott
Oh well. Ali-X do seem to offer a returns procedure. Should be interesting.

I should think the P&P will cost more than that cable!

[Mike Scott]

....

Post by Andy Burns
You can get a flexible PCIe 1x extension that should overcome the
mechanical issue if your case has a spare slot that's away from the
motherboard (or you don't mind a blutack and rubber-band approach).
<https://amazon.co.uk/dp/B0C9T9L99V>

Again, not one I'd seen, so thanks. I'll bear it in mind. Stability is
an issue though - SCSI cables (at least mine) are thick and heavy so
there's a lot of force on the backplate.

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Mike Scott
Oh well. Ali-X do seem to offer a returns procedure. Should be interesting.

I should think the P&P will cost more than that cable!

Actually not; I was surprised - I got a tracked-48 prepaid label to an
address in the UK. They offer to refund cost+postage. Whether they'll
accept the produce has a design flaw will be interesting to see,
although I doubt it's worth their time to argue on a low-value item.

[Jaimie Vandenbergh]

On 5 Dec 2023 at 10:26:32 GMT, "Mike Scott"

Post by Mike Scott

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Mike Scott
Oh well. Ali-X do seem to offer a returns procedure. Should be interesting.

I should think the P&P will cost more than that cable!

Actually not; I was surprised - I got a tracked-48 prepaid label to an
address in the UK. They offer to refund cost+postage. Whether they'll
accept the produce has a design flaw will be interesting to see,
although I doubt it's worth their time to argue on a low-value item.

Not so much a design flaw as 'not designed for your use' - as Andy says,
a PCIe 1x ribbon would be the way forward. If you had eg an ITX or mATX
board in an ATX case there could possibly be a hard adapter that would
go sideways and down to mobo level and use the empty case slot(s) that
the mobo isn't using, but it wouldn't be this shape. Assuming the Ali
one you got is like the eBay one someone posted, that looks to be for a
custom stubby PCI card with a mounting bolt hole to the oddly shaped
backplate.

Cheers - Jaimie

[Mike Scott]

Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
On 5 Dec 2023 at 10:26:32 GMT, "Mike Scott"

Post by Mike Scott

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Mike Scott
Oh well. Ali-X do seem to offer a returns procedure. Should be interesting.

I should think the P&P will cost more than that cable!

Actually not; I was surprised - I got a tracked-48 prepaid label to an
address in the UK. They offer to refund cost+postage. Whether they'll
accept the produce has a design flaw will be interesting to see,
although I doubt it's worth their time to argue on a low-value item.

Not so much a design flaw as 'not designed for your use' - as Andy says,

It looked like this one (I suspect the exact same bar the price ratio):
<https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/145192969996>
with its own backplate. There'd clearly be a height issue; I'd not
really considered that they'd not allow for the double back-plate
thickness. It's clearly intended for a PCI board with its own
back-plate, as it has a huge cutout so any sockets will poke through.

Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
a PCIe 1x ribbon would be the way forward. If you had eg an ITX or mATX
board in an ATX case there could possibly be a hard adapter that would
go sideways and down to mobo level and use the empty case slot(s) that
the mobo isn't using, but it wouldn't be this shape. Assuming the Ali

Mobo backplane has two slots only, aligned with the first and 4th places
on the case rear; I'm not sure though that it will allow anything to
mount in the 2nd and 3rd places.

Maybe I'll just save up for a new scanner.... I've had a hankering for a
sheet feed one for a while.

Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
one you got is like the eBay one someone posted, that looks to be for a
custom stubby PCI card with a mounting bolt hole to the oddly shaped
backplate.
Cheers - Jaimie

[Theo]

Post by Mike Scott
<https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/145192969996>
with its own backplate. There'd clearly be a height issue; I'd not
really considered that they'd not allow for the double back-plate
thickness. It's clearly intended for a PCI board with its own
back-plate, as it has a huge cutout so any sockets will poke through.

The idea might be that you remove the backplate from the PCI card and have
just the sockets poking through the hole. Obviously it'll only work for low
profile cards or those which don't have protruding sockets on the top half
of the backplate (and for which you don't mind not using any sockets fouled
by the case).

It's a hack. It works electrically but you may have to make mechanical
adjustments to your setup.

Post by Mike Scott

Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
a PCIe 1x ribbon would be the way forward. If you had eg an ITX or mATX
board in an ATX case there could possibly be a hard adapter that would
go sideways and down to mobo level and use the empty case slot(s) that
the mobo isn't using, but it wouldn't be this shape. Assuming the Ali

Mobo backplane has two slots only, aligned with the first and 4th places
on the case rear; I'm not sure though that it will allow anything to
mount in the 2nd and 3rd places.

If it's an ATX case then presumably you have a gap at slots 5/6/7 where such
a board could be mounted:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003878749584.html

Post by Mike Scott
Maybe I'll just save up for a new scanner.... I've had a hankering for a
sheet feed one for a while.

The other thing with ancient SCSI cards is the drivers probably aren't
updated (assuming you use Windows). So a recent USB scanner may be safer in
that respect.

Theo

[Mike Scott]

On 05/12/2023 16:16, Theo wrote:
....

Post by Theo
The other thing with ancient SCSI cards is the drivers probably aren't
updated (assuming you use Windows). So a recent USB scanner may be safer in

Linux Mint, just for the record.

Its all worked solidly for maybe 15+ years under Mint until the mobo
problems.

Post by Theo
that respect.
Theo

[Mike Scott]

Post by Mike Scott
.....

Post by Mike Scott
I nearly ordered a cheapish Canon (LiDE 400) with the new machine, but
doubts over linux support lingered. I'll see what the pcie-to-pci
riser looks like first.

Well, it came. The riser, that is. Pretty speedily too from China.
I assume the electronics would install one. It's mechanically impossible

Terminal brain fatigue. That should read "I assume the electronics would
work. But...."

Post by Mike Scott
to insert a PCI card into the adapter, because the two backplates would
interfere with the PCI card inserted into the adapter's socket.
I did wonder when I saw the original image on the web, so I'm not
surprised; just disappointed at what seems a noddy design error.
Oh well. Ali-X do seem to offer a returns procedure. Should be interesting.