NAS Concerns

Post by Jeff Gaines
Adrian Caspersz's post on RAID 10 made me start checking a few things.
I decided to break my 2 x QNAP NAS down to work as 4 x individual disks,
I don't know if that is JBOD, they don't work together in any way?
I did that with TS431 and made sure all was well and backed my stuff up
to it.
I then did the same with the TS451 but got some odd drive sizes so I
turned it off and pulled the drives to discover I had 2 x 2TB SSD and w
x 3 TB spinners. I have no idea why I set it up like that but it may
have been at a time when there was a considerable price difference.
Anyway I think setting it up as RAID 10 probably hid that from me as I
thought there were 4 x 2 TB SSD in there!
I now see that the first drive in each of the NAS's is marked as the
system drive. If that is the one that fails do I lose the data on the
other three drives? If so will it come back when the system drive is
replaced?
The more I think about it the less happy I am using a NAS for my backup,
although they are good for streaming stuff locally.
I also discovered that I still had apps on the old (Z170K) box that I
needed to un-install while online and I had completely forgotten to copy
my "well mannered" games directory over so a timely comment by Adrian,
thank you :-)
If I use a spare PC as a backup server what's best the Asus Z170K a
single Xeon HP Z320 or dual Xeon 64 GB RAM Z620 heavy metal?

Cheapest solution is to buy old Microserver, add 4 x HDD and set then as
2 separate Mirror RAID or how ever it works for you. Add small SSD in
DVD slot, Load FREENAS or Windows 10.
Then it is just matter of telling back up software to back up to it or
any other way you like to back up.
It can be hidden in a cupboard, can be started and shut down over the
network.

Daniel James

2024-02-23 18:34:06 UTC

Post by Jeff Gaines
I decided to break my 2 x QNAP NAS down to work as 4 x individual disks,
I don't know if that is JBOD, they don't work together in any way?

JBOD is "Just a Bunch Of Disks/Drives". The drives in question can be
separate logical drives, as you have them, or they can be (for example)
spanned to appear as one big drive. The term JBOD is usually used when a
drive array doesn't provide any speed increase (e.g. by striping) or
redundancy.

Post by Jeff Gaines
I then did the same with the TS451 but got some odd drive sizes so I
turned it off and pulled the drives to discover I had 2 x 2TB SSD and
w x 3 TB spinners. I have no idea why I set it up like that but it
may have been at a time when there was a considerable price
difference. Anyway I think setting it up as RAID 10 probably hid that
from me as I thought there were 4 x 2 TB SSD in there!

It sounds like a price consideration ... maybe you had two 2TB striped
drives and wanted to add redundancy and got a good price on 3TB drives?

Personally, I'd probably set those up as two separate RAID 1 arrays of
2TB and 3TB respectively ... it's as simple as it comes and gives you
redundancy. Others might set them up as a 4-drive RAID 5 system (as
though they were all 2TB drives) giving 6TB with one redundant drive.
The problem with RAID 5 is that rebuilding an array when a drive is
replaced takes loner and works the remaining disks harder, so there's a
danger that a second drive will fail before the array is rebuilt -- you
probably know all this.

Post by Jeff Gaines
I now see that the first drive in each of the NAS's is marked as the
system drive. If that is the one that fails do I lose the data on the
other three drives? If so will it come back when the system drive is
replaced?

I don't know QNAP's software, so I don't know exactly what would happen.
I would guess that if the system is booting from one of the drives and
that drive fails you would have to write the QNAP software to a
replacement drive before rebuilding the array. It may do that
automatically. It may also be that the software is written to all the
drives and the system will boot from the first working disk it finds
that has the software on it. Ask QNAP.

Post by Jeff Gaines
The more I think about it the less happy I am using a NAS for my
backup, although they are good for streaming stuff locally.

NAS boxes make good backup media ... but they should never by your
*only* backup media. Two NASes are better than one ...

Post by Jeff Gaines
If I use a spare PC as a backup server what's best the Asus Z170K a
single Xeon HP Z320 or dual Xeon 64 GB RAM Z620 heavy metal?

The advantage of NAS appliances, like your QNAPs, is that they consume
less power than a regular PC, which is important for devices that run
24/7 (especially with electricity prices as they have been recently). An
HP Microserver (like Raj suggests) is somewhere in between standard
desktop hardware and a NAS in power consumption.

For convenience and flexibility I can recommend a Microserver with
NAS4Free or equivalent ... but there is a cost in power. Incidentally:
the Microservers I have come with internal USB sockets that can be used
to boot the systems from flash (rather than putting an SSD in the DVD
slot as Raj suggests). Either way, the system is on a seprarate drive so
any of the data volumes can be replaced and the array rebuilt without
losing the system (and the system device contains no data, so you can
just replace it if it fails and the array will still be valid).

I used to run a 2-drive Netgear ReadyNAS box which used 10-15W
(depending on drives and load) and a Microserver N36L which used 20-30W
with two drives installed. My desktop PC at the time ran at 65W when
idle. These figures are about ten years out of date (as old as the n36L)
as I haven't bothered to measure any more recent hardware.

--
Cheers,
Daniel.

Jaimie Vandenbergh

2024-02-23 19:26:56 UTC

Post by Daniel James
For convenience and flexibility I can recommend a Microserver with
NAS4Free or equivalent ... but there is a cost in power.

I filled my HP Microserver N54L with four 14Tb disks and it was up at
52W, of which about 20W was the disks.

A dedicated little NAS machine would probably be 10-15W plus the disks.
A homebuilt Raspberry Pi 4 would be 5-10W plus disks.

I actually use a 10core Xeon 64gig Dell server slab as my NAS, which is
55W with four disks in. They can be surprisingly frugal on wattage when
you tune them, and not particularly noisy either. And it can fill a
10gigE network connection.

Anyway, at 55W I power it down most of the time. I don't want to pay

Post by Daniel James
£100/year for continuous access. And the 2nd NAS which I back it up to

is only on for half an hour max at a time, when the first one wants to
back up to it.

Cheers - Jaimie

--
Sent from my PDP11/45

2024-02-23 19:56:17 UTC

Post by Daniel James

Post by Jeff Gaines
I decided to break my 2 x QNAP NAS down to work as 4 x individual
disks, I don't know if that is JBOD, they don't work together in any way?

It sounds like a price consideration ... maybe you had two 2TB striped
drives and wanted to add redundancy and got a good price on 3TB drives?
Personally, I'd probably set those up as two separate RAID 1 arrays of
2TB and 3TB respectively ... it's as simple as it comes and gives you
redundancy. Others might set them up as a 4-drive RAID 5 system (as
though they were all 2TB drives) giving 6TB with one redundant drive.
The problem with RAID 5 is that rebuilding an array when a drive is
replaced takes loner and works the remaining disks harder, so there's a
danger that a second drive will fail before the array is rebuilt -- you
probably know all this.

Post by Jeff Gaines
The more I think about it the less happy I am using a NAS for my
backup, although they are good for streaming stuff locally.

NAS boxes make good backup media ... but they should never by your
*only* backup media. Two NASes are better than one ...

Post by Jeff Gaines
If I use a spare PC as a backup server what's best the Asus Z170K a
single Xeon HP Z320 or dual Xeon 64 GB RAM Z620 heavy metal?

The advantage of NAS appliances, like your QNAPs, is that they consume
less power than a regular PC, which is important for devices that run
24/7 (especially with electricity prices as they have been recently). An
HP Microserver (like Raj suggests) is somewhere in between standard
desktop hardware and a NAS in power consumption.
For convenience and flexibility I can recommend a Microserver with
the Microservers I have come with internal USB sockets that can be used
to boot the systems from flash (rather than putting an SSD in the DVD
slot as Raj suggests). Either way, the system is on a seprarate drive so
any of the data volumes can be replaced and the array rebuilt without
losing the system (and the system device contains no data, so you can
just replace it if it fails and the array will still be valid).
I used to run a 2-drive Netgear ReadyNAS box which used 10-15W
(depending on drives and load) and a Microserver N36L which used 20-30W
with two drives installed. My desktop PC at the time ran at 65W when
idle. These figures are about ten years out of date (as old as the n36L)
as I haven't bothered to measure any more recent hardware.

I actually run ProxMox on a server which in turn has 4 virtualised
NASes, Rockstor, Openmediavault, Xigmanas and TrueNas. Each of the
virtualised NASes have been given a passed through 2TB SSD......

Jeff Gaines

2024-02-25 10:16:14 UTC

Post by Jeff Gaines
The more I think about it the less happy I am using a NAS for my backup,
although they are good for streaming stuff locally.

Thanks for all the input :-)

I ended up simplifying things (I think) using your input and now have:

1 x QNAP TS 451+

2 x 2 TB SSD in RAID 1 Contain multimedia for streaming over home network
2 x 3 TB spinners as JBOD contain archive media on one and a backup of
that on the second.

Main PC

1 x NVMe as boot drive
1 x NVMe as data drive (including well behaved apps that don't need
installing)
1 x NVMe as multimedia drive

3 x SSD as data backup
3 x SSD as multimedia backup
(multimedia also copied to NAS so anything new becomes available to stream)

1 x external 4 TB USB as my "grab it and run" drive for if the firemen
give me time to unplug it

Still nothing off-site. I'm not comfortable using the cloud since my
password spreadsheet was hacked from Dropbox.

It's probably overkill but it's taken one PC and one NAS out of the power
equation and all the backup drives are capable of being read by pretty
well anything, unlike the NAS drives. If I can find something NAS sized
that runs Windows I might be tempted to build a Windows NAS, I'll have to
see.

Thanks again to all!

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
There are 10 types of people in the world, those who do binary and those
who don't.

2024-02-25 10:34:04 UTC

Post by Jeff Gaines
The more I think about it the less happy I am using a NAS for my
backup, although they are good for streaming stuff locally.

Thanks for all the input :-)
1 x QNAP TS 451+
2 x 2 TB SSD in RAID 1 Contain multimedia for streaming over home network
2 x 3 TB spinners as JBOD contain archive media on one and a backup of
that on the second.
Main PC
1 x NVMe as boot drive
1 x NVMe as data drive (including well behaved apps that don't need
installing)
1 x NVMe as multimedia drive
3 x SSD as data backup
3 x SSD as multimedia backup
(multimedia also copied to NAS so anything new becomes available to stream)
1 x external 4 TB USB as my "grab it and run" drive for if the firemen
give me time to unplug it
Still nothing off-site. I'm not comfortable using the cloud since my
password spreadsheet was hacked from Dropbox.
It's probably overkill but it's taken one PC and one NAS out of the
power equation and all the backup drives are capable of being read by
pretty well anything, unlike the NAS drives. If I can find something NAS
sized that runs Windows I might be tempted to build a Windows NAS, I'll
have to see.
Thanks again to all!

think you can still get copies of windows home server?

I've built 4 NASes as it happens, Openmediavault, Rockstor, Truenas and
xigmanas on ProxMox.

I shut the whole thing down and rebooted into a Live Linux via USB. The
OMV drive was viewable, (EXT4) and so was Rockstor (BTRFS).

The Truenas and Xigmanas drives are ZFS and UFS respectively so will
need to see if I can fine a Live FreeBSD distro so I can check I can
view these two SSDs or add ZFS and UFS support to the Live Linux distro

Jeff Gaines

2024-02-25 10:55:31 UTC

It's probably overkill but it's taken one PC and one NAS out of the power
equation and all the backup drives are capable of being read by pretty
well anything, unlike the NAS drives. If I can find something NAS sized
that runs Windows I might be tempted to build a Windows NAS, I'll have to
see.
Thanks again to all!

think you can still get copies of windows home server?

I still have my MSDN copy of Server 2008! As it would only be a file
server I suspect Win 10 would do the job.

Post by SH
I've built 4 NASes as it happens, Openmediavault, Rockstor, Truenas and
xigmanas on ProxMox.
I shut the whole thing down and rebooted into a Live Linux via USB. The
OMV drive was viewable, (EXT4) and so was Rockstor (BTRFS).
The Truenas and Xigmanas drives are ZFS and UFS respectively so will need
to see if I can fine a Live FreeBSD distro so I can check I can view these
two SSDs or add ZFS and UFS support to the Live Linux distro

That's a good test, dig out Ventoy again!

If I could get a PC in a NAS sized box with NAS type access to the drives
I'd be tempted. Probably ought to start eBaying the unused stuff...

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
Though no-one can go back and make a new start, everyone can start from
now and make a new ending.

2024-02-25 11:05:31 UTC

Post by Jeff Gaines
It's probably overkill but it's taken one PC and one NAS out of the
power equation and all the backup drives are capable of being read
by pretty well anything, unlike the NAS drives. If I can find
something NAS sized that runs Windows I might be tempted to build a
Windows NAS, I'll have to see.
Thanks again to all!

think you can still get copies of windows home server?

I still have my MSDN copy of Server 2008! As it would only be a file
server I suspect Win 10 would do the job.

Post by SH
I've built 4 NASes as it happens, Openmediavault, Rockstor, Truenas
and xigmanas on ProxMox.
I shut the whole thing down and rebooted into a Live Linux via USB.
The OMV drive was viewable, (EXT4) and so was Rockstor (BTRFS).
The Truenas and Xigmanas drives are ZFS and UFS respectively so will
need to see if I can fine a Live FreeBSD distro so I can check I can
view these two SSDs or add ZFS and UFS support to the Live Linux distro

That's a good test, dig out Ventoy again!
If I could get a PC in a NAS sized box with NAS type access to the
drives I'd be tempted. Probably ought to start eBaying the unused stuff...

an important criteria for any NAS I build is that the bare drive MUST be
accessible on ANY PC using ANY Live CD distro..... hence a satck of
ISo's on a Ventoy SSD via UASP SATA to USB adpater

How else would I get at my data in the case of a gross catastrophic
NAS failure?

Jeff Gaines

2024-02-25 11:18:10 UTC

How else would I get at my data in the case of a gross catastrophic NAS
failure?

Absolutely!

I wonder about an external USB 4 bay HD enclosure:

This looks like my NAS:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/QNAP-TR-004-Desktop-Expansion-Enclosure/dp/B07K23ZJFN/ref=asc_df_B07K23ZJFN/?hvadid=310843013710&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=8521970450531904021&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1006943&hvtargid=pla-639656951025&psc=1&mcid=4b842c0d2e923dd8bbceb5dcdf0b4009

This doesn't but is cheaper:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/ORICO-Aluminium-4-Bay-Drive-Enclosure-Black/dp/B09H23XLFS/ref=sr_1_3?dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.tspKNJEFwpQBZi_iMb-seI1nASIlModzJjjN-Ond9XhouXJ-yUZIuSDziP34grPhJaIEBwbttZNTst7by-LMQ6Wa3NW4PXNnesfm-tOdvncfHUaCxsixu9nC9M_NTE6CGNR_UHJ-lNrss-5FsqZ5G2YAGbjHjllsJJdvOHxR_-ypmXXG41nLUuT-B6IG-5WEgXJuLk0d-H6k8JN2RTUcounHoGWI4QzxA_a3rGas2eo.OvCbYnTCxBjEb65344XPU8DyxRwM8JRAPUmhx0dqrw8&dib_tag=se&keywords=orico+hard+drive+enclosure&sr=8-3&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.d7e5a2de-8759-4da3-993c-d11b6e3d217f

I should probably have gone for something like that in the first place :-(

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
There are 3 types of people in this world. Those who can count, and those
who can't.

2024-02-25 11:57:26 UTC

Post by SH
How else would I get at my data in the case of a gross catastrophic
NAS failure?

Absolutely!
https://www.amazon.co.uk/QNAP-TR-004-Desktop-Expansion-Enclosure/dp/B07K23ZJFN/ref=asc_df_B07K23ZJFN/?hvadid=310843013710&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=8521970450531904021&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1006943&hvtargid=pla-639656951025&psc=1&mcid=4b842c0d2e923dd8bbceb5dcdf0b4009
https://www.amazon.co.uk/ORICO-Aluminium-4-Bay-Drive-Enclosure-Black/dp/B09H23XLFS/ref=sr_1_3?dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.tspKNJEFwpQBZi_iMb-seI1nASIlModzJjjN-Ond9XhouXJ-yUZIuSDziP34grPhJaIEBwbttZNTst7by-LMQ6Wa3NW4PXNnesfm-tOdvncfHUaCxsixu9nC9M_NTE6CGNR_UHJ-lNrss-5FsqZ5G2YAGbjHjllsJJdvOHxR_-ypmXXG41nLUuT-B6IG-5WEgXJuLk0d-H6k8JN2RTUcounHoGWI4QzxA_a3rGas2eo.OvCbYnTCxBjEb65344XPU8DyxRwM8JRAPUmhx0dqrw8&dib_tag=se&keywords=orico+hard+drive+enclosure&sr=8-3&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.d7e5a2de-8759-4da3-993c-d11b6e3d217f
I should probably have gone for something like that in the first place :-(

the first item is a good find for me as my ProxMox has 4 off 2 TB SSDs
all passed through to OMV, Rockstor, TrueNas and Xigmanas running off
the Mobo's 4 SATA ports.

I have 4 spare USB 3.1 ports on the physical machine so was going to put
a load of SATA discs onto USB for backing up all 4 four NASes.....

The 2nd item although cheaper I'm not so keen on as I try to avoid
chinese clones or obscure sounding names as I dont want to take any
chances with MY data gettibg corrupted.

2024-02-25 11:18:38 UTC

think you can still get copies of windows home server?

I still have my MSDN copy of Server 2008! As it would only be a file
server I suspect Win 10 would do the job.

Post by SH
I've built 4 NASes as it happens, Openmediavault, Rockstor, Truenas
and xigmanas on ProxMox.
I shut the whole thing down and rebooted into a Live Linux via USB.
The OMV drive was viewable, (EXT4) and so was Rockstor (BTRFS).
The Truenas and Xigmanas drives are ZFS and UFS respectively so will
need to see if I can fine a Live FreeBSD distro so I can check I can
view these two SSDs or add ZFS and UFS support to the Live Linux distro

That's a good test, dig out Ventoy again!
If I could get a PC in a NAS sized box with NAS type access to the
drives I'd be tempted. Probably ought to start eBaying the unused stuff...

an important criteria for any NAS I build is that the bare drive MUST be
accessible on ANY PC using ANY Live CD distro..... hence a satck of
ISo's on a Ventoy SSD via UASP SATA to USB adpater
How else would I get at my data in the case of a gross catastrophic
NAS failure?

P.S. Just found out that the FreeBSD DVD installer does offer Live
mode.... so thats another ISO to add to the ever growing list under
Ventoy......

S.

2024-02-25 12:33:25 UTC

Post by Jeff Gaines
It's probably overkill but it's taken one PC and one NAS out of the
power equation and all the backup drives are capable of being read
by pretty well anything, unlike the NAS drives. If I can find
something NAS sized that runs Windows I might be tempted to build
a Windows NAS, I'll have to see.
Thanks again to all!

think you can still get copies of windows home server?

I still have my MSDN copy of Server 2008! As it would only be a file
server I suspect Win 10 would do the job.

Post by SH
I've built 4 NASes as it happens, Openmediavault, Rockstor, Truenas
and xigmanas on ProxMox.
I shut the whole thing down and rebooted into a Live Linux via USB.
The OMV drive was viewable, (EXT4) and so was Rockstor (BTRFS).
The Truenas and Xigmanas drives are ZFS and UFS respectively so will
need to see if I can fine a Live FreeBSD distro so I can check I can
view these two SSDs or add ZFS and UFS support to the Live Linux distro

That's a good test, dig out Ventoy again!
If I could get a PC in a NAS sized box with NAS type access to the
drives I'd be tempted. Probably ought to start eBaying the unused stuff...

an important criteria for any NAS I build is that the bare drive MUST
be accessible on ANY PC using ANY Live CD distro..... hence a satck
of ISo's on a Ventoy SSD via UASP SATA to USB adpater
How else would I get at my data in the case of a gross catastrophic
NAS failure?

P.S. Just found out that the FreeBSD DVD installer does offer Live
mode.... so thats another ISO to add to the ever growing list under
Ventoy......
S.

P.S. I like IcyBox.....

https://www.scan.co.uk/shop/computer-hardware/hard-drives-external/direct-attached-storage-enclosures

Raj Kundra

2024-02-27 23:37:14 UTC