Backups, NAS

[Daniel James]

I have a couple of old NAS enclosures. They're Netgear ReadyNAS Duo
units, the old ones that use a SPARC processor implemented in an FPGA.

Unfortunately they're way out of support. Netgear replaced their 2-bay
NAS range with ARM-based units years ago, and now seem to be getting out
of the NAS business altogether. Their software is based on a Linux
distribution that no longer supports SPARC and which supports only V1 of
the SMB protocol, which is insecure and has been dropped by just about
anything you might want to run. This limits the usefulness of the NASes
even though they still work with NFS, FTP, and rsync.

Even the web-based management interface is a difficulty as the unit's
self-signed SSL certificate uses old algorithms and short keys that
don't meet the security requirements of modern browsers.

I'm looking to replace them.

One thing I really liked about these units was that they were capable of
backing up a remote PC over a network share. So long as the PC was
switched on (maybe WOL was supported, I don't recall) the NAS would back
up the shares at predetermines times without any software (beyond the OS
and samba) running on the PC itself. This meant that the NAS could
perform the backup without exposing any of its own drives as shares,
which in turn meant that it wouldn't be visible to malware (especially
ransomware) and wouldn't be infected/encrypted.

Obviously one needs to back the NAS up as well, it's not a backup
strategy on its own.

I've been reading about NAS drives that are available today - Synology
and QNAP, mostly - and I can't tell from the blurb or the reviews
whether the same sort of backup facility that I used to like so much in
the Netgear devices is available on any of them. Can anyone here who has
experience of these devices help me to understand?

The PC I'm most worried about backing up is the Windows box used by
SWMBO for "work", but I'd use it for my Linux boxes as well.

The alternative would be to set up a small low-power PC (preferably
using less juice than my Microserver) and run some backup solution on
that ... but I'm struggling to find software I don't have to write
myself (too many rabbit holes) that will do the job. Any recommendations?

[Abandoned Trolley]

Post by Daniel James
I have a couple of old NAS enclosures. They're Netgear ReadyNAS Duo
units, the old ones that use a SPARC processor implemented in an FPGA.
Unfortunately they're way out of support. Netgear replaced their 2-bay
NAS range with ARM-based units years ago, and now seem to be getting out
of the NAS business altogether. Their software is based on a Linux
distribution that no longer supports SPARC and which supports only V1 of
the SMB protocol, which is insecure and has been dropped by just about
anything you might want to run. This limits the usefulness of the NASes
even though they still work with NFS, FTP, and rsync.
Even the web-based management interface is a difficulty as the unit's
self-signed SSL certificate uses old algorithms and short keys that
don't meet the security requirements of modern browsers.
I'm looking to replace them.
One thing I really liked about these units was that they were capable of
backing up a remote PC over a network share. So long as the PC was
switched on (maybe WOL was supported, I don't recall) the NAS would back
up the shares at predetermines times without any software (beyond the OS
and samba) running on the PC itself. This meant that the NAS could
perform the backup without exposing any of its own drives as shares,
which in turn meant that it wouldn't be visible to malware (especially
ransomware) and wouldn't be infected/encrypted.
Obviously one needs to back the NAS up as well, it's not a backup
strategy on its own.
I've been reading about NAS drives that are available today - Synology
and QNAP, mostly - and I can't tell from the blurb or the reviews
whether the same sort of backup facility that I used to like so much in
the Netgear devices is available on any of them. Can anyone here who has
experience of these devices help me to understand?
The PC I'm most worried about backing up is the Windows box used by
SWMBO for "work", but I'd use it for my Linux boxes as well.
The alternative would be to set up a small low-power PC (preferably
using less juice than my Microserver) and run some backup solution on
that ... but I'm struggling to find software I don't have to write
myself (too many rabbit holes) that will do the job. Any recommendations?

crontabs

[Theo]

Post by Abandoned Trolley

Post by Daniel James
The alternative would be to set up a small low-power PC (preferably
using less juice than my Microserver) and run some backup solution on
that ... but I'm struggling to find software I don't have to write
myself (too many rabbit holes) that will do the job. Any recommendations?

crontabs

Depends what you mean by 'software', but there's tools like rsync,
rsnapshot, syncoid plus a script/config file to run it (from crontab or
otherwise)

Or do you mean a clicky GUI? Syncthing is such a tool that springs to mind.

Once you have a box that's Just Another Server with Just A Bunch Of Files,
you aren't tramlined into whatever software a NAS vendor decides to offer
you, you can install whatever. Then it's a case of finding the 'whatever'
that meets the model of how you want it to work.

Theo

[Pancho]

Post by Theo

Post by Abandoned Trolley

Post by Daniel James
The alternative would be to set up a small low-power PC (preferably
using less juice than my Microserver) and run some backup solution on
that ... but I'm struggling to find software I don't have to write
myself (too many rabbit holes) that will do the job. Any recommendations?

crontabs

Depends what you mean by 'software', but there's tools like rsync,
rsnapshot, syncoid plus a script/config file to run it (from crontab or
otherwise)
Or do you mean a clicky GUI? Syncthing is such a tool that springs to mind.

I use Syncthing as an alternative to Dropbox, or Google Drive, to share
data between PCs, and mobile devices. It isn't something I would trust
for backup without considerable research. It might go crazy and delete
all shares. In fact, I use rsnapshot to backup my Syncthing folders.


Syncthing is not really a clicky tool either, that is just for setting
up shared folders.

[Daniel James]

Post by Theo
Depends what you mean by 'software', but there's tools like rsync,
rsnapshot, syncoid plus a script/config file to run it (from crontab or
otherwise)

Yes, I could just run rsync on the NAS/whatever to copy from the shared
drive. I currently back up Linux boxes using rsync over ssh, and I'd
been thinking I couldn't run rsync from Windows because Windows doesn't
have an rsync client (or does it, these days?) but as the drive to be
backed up will be shared I can use rsync directly from the NAS ...
though it will be a bit less efficient.

Is that as good as it gets?

Post by Theo
Or do you mean a clicky GUI?

I'm not a big fan of unnecessary GUI front ends ... but sometimes a GUI
can help. In this case a GUI is certainly not a "must have", but I can
see that one might be nice e.g. for selecting what is to be backed up
and what is not.

I'm trying to find out what (methods and/or tools) is available that may
have escaped my Google-Fu.

TBH Googling for this is difficult. Most things that turn up are backup
tools that run ON the machine being backed up, which is not what I want,
and as soon as I include NAS or server in the search I only get results
that talk about backing up one server to another, not backing up a PC to
a NAS/server FROM that NAS/server.

Post by Theo
Once you have a box that's Just Another Server with Just A Bunch Of
Files, you aren't tramlined into whatever software a NAS vendor
decides to offer you, you can install whatever. Then it's a case of
finding the 'whatever' that meets the model of how you want it to
work.

Indeed.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[Theo]

Post by Daniel James

Post by Theo
Depends what you mean by 'software', but there's tools like rsync,
rsnapshot, syncoid plus a script/config file to run it (from crontab or
otherwise)

Yes, I could just run rsync on the NAS/whatever to copy from the shared
drive. I currently back up Linux boxes using rsync over ssh, and I'd
been thinking I couldn't run rsync from Windows because Windows doesn't
have an rsync client (or does it, these days?) but as the drive to be
backed up will be shared I can use rsync directly from the NAS ...
though it will be a bit less efficient.

There's https://itefix.net/cwrsync
(uses cygwin)
or there's a native version you can run in a git-bash environment:
https://prasaz.medium.com/add-rsync-to-windows-git-bash-f42736bae1b3
or you can always run Linux rsync via WSL, which can see your Windows files.

Windows supports an SSH server natively these days, or you can SSH into a
WSL environment.

Post by Daniel James
Is that as good as it gets?

What do you want it to do? Just copy files, or take some kind of
incremental backup (Tuesday's version of the files, Wednesday's version,
January's version, etc)? rsync does the former, rsnapshot the latter.

Post by Daniel James

Post by Theo
Or do you mean a clicky GUI?

I'm not a big fan of unnecessary GUI front ends ... but sometimes a GUI
can help. In this case a GUI is certainly not a "must have", but I can
see that one might be nice e.g. for selecting what is to be backed up
and what is not.
I'm trying to find out what (methods and/or tools) is available that may
have escaped my Google-Fu.
TBH Googling for this is difficult. Most things that turn up are backup
tools that run ON the machine being backed up, which is not what I want,
and as soon as I include NAS or server in the search I only get results
that talk about backing up one server to another, not backing up a PC to
a NAS/server FROM that NAS/server.

It sounds like you want a daemon of some kind: running on the PC and
listening for backup requests. Then the server can initiate a 'pull',
rather than the PC running a 'push'. ssh/scp/sftp is the obvious tool for
that, or something that runs over ssh (like rsync/rsnapshot)

Or you export the PC's files as a network share and then copy them from
there. In which case it's a 'local' copy as far as the NAS is concerned.

Theo

[Daniel James]

There'shttps://itefix.net/cwrsync
(uses cygwin)
https://prasaz.medium.com/add-rsync-to-windows-git-bash-f42736bae1b3
or you can always run Linux rsync via WSL, which can see your Windows files.
Windows supports an SSH server natively these days, or you can SSH into a
WSL environment.

I should, perhaps, have mentioned that the main Windows machine I'm
interested in being able to back up belongs to SWMBO, who will not want
"techy crap" that she doesn't understand on her machine (and, indeed,
"work" may argue against it ... though it is HER machine, not theirs).

I'm too out of touch with what Windows looks like these days ... is WSL
installed as standard, these days? I guess probably not ... and I guess
I should $SEARCH_ENGINE it.

Post by Daniel James
Is that as good as it gets?

What do you want it to do? Just copy files, or take some kind of
incremental backup (Tuesday's version of the files, Wednesday's version,
January's version, etc)? rsync does the former, rsnapshot the latter.

I suppose what I'm asking is whether there's a purpose-built backup
utility that either runs on Linux or comes as part of the software of a
NAS box that knows what a Windows share is and will back one up
periodically (possibly as a cron job). Just to save me from having to
reinvent any well-knows wheels. As I said, my Google-Fu is failing me
more than usual on this!

It sounds like you want a daemon of some kind: running on the PC and
listening for backup requests.

No. Not if I can help it. I'd really like not to have to install
anything at all on the PC, the Windows one(s) anyway.

Then the server can initiate a 'pull', rather than the PC running a
'push'.

That's exactly what I want. Why would that require a demon? It didn't
for my Netgear NAS to do its stuff.

ssh/scp/sftp is the obvious tool for that, or something that runs
over ssh (like rsync/rsnapshot)

That's fine if the PC is running Linux ... I guess I do need to look
into WSL.

Or you export the PC's files as a network share and then copy them from
there. In which case it's a 'local' copy as far as the NAS is concerned.

Yes, that's right ... and as I commented last time it has slowly dawned
on me that rsync on a Linux box can copy from a Windows share in that
way -- it doesn't have to use ssh, but ssh enables it to eliminate some
redundant copies. I don't know why I didn't spot that straight away, I
do it often enough!

rsync will do ... but I'd still be pleased to hear of any software
designed specifically for backups that works in that way.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[Bernard Peek]

Post by Daniel James
The alternative would be to set up a small low-power PC (preferably
using less juice than my Microserver) and run some backup solution on
that ... but I'm struggling to find software I don't have to write
myself (too many rabbit holes) that will do the job. Any recommendations?

A few thoughts. Consider using the existing NAS devices on a second network
behind a firewall. Basically a SAN.

I've never found any backup software that did what I wanted. The cp command
has everything I need.

[Adrian Caspersz]

Post by Daniel James
The PC I'm most worried about backing up is the Windows box used by
SWMBO for "work", but I'd use it for my Linux boxes as well.
The alternative would be to set up a small low-power PC (preferably
using less juice than my Microserver) and run some backup solution on
that ... but I'm struggling to find software I don't have to write
myself (too many rabbit holes) that will do the job. Any recommendations?

urbackup
https://www.urbackup.org/

Unfortunately you need a bit of in-depth knowledge where your data lies,
and the configuration is not that friendly. So it's a rabbit hole as
well. Perhaps, it's a bit more network enterprise than home - but it
does me and has saved me bacon when I've accidentally deleted things.

[Theo]

Post by Adrian Caspersz
urbackup
https://www.urbackup.org/
Unfortunately you need a bit of in-depth knowledge where your data lies,
and the configuration is not that friendly. So it's a rabbit hole as
well. Perhaps, it's a bit more network enterprise than home - but it
does me and has saved me bacon when I've accidentally deleted things.

Interesting, I'd not heard of it. I see 'unreliable' comes up as a
description, especially on wifi or routed networks:
https://www.reddit.com/r/selfhosted/comments/17o63zy/i_love_the_idea_behind_urbackup_but_its_executed/

Is that the sort of thing that Just Needs Configuring Correctly, ie a lack
of sensible out of the box config, or is it inherently not able to cope with
machines not on the same hardwired ethernet?

Theo

[Adrian Caspersz]

Post by Theo

Post by Adrian Caspersz
urbackup
https://www.urbackup.org/
Unfortunately you need a bit of in-depth knowledge where your data lies,
and the configuration is not that friendly. So it's a rabbit hole as
well. Perhaps, it's a bit more network enterprise than home - but it
does me and has saved me bacon when I've accidentally deleted things.

Interesting, I'd not heard of it. I see 'unreliable' comes up as a
https://www.reddit.com/r/selfhosted/comments/17o63zy/i_love_the_idea_behind_urbackup_but_its_executed/
Is that the sort of thing that Just Needs Configuring Correctly, ie a lack
of sensible out of the box config,

Yup, all that. Make a wrong selection and you end up backing up multiple
versions of modifications to your browser's cache file :(

or is it inherently not able to cope with

Post by Theo
machines not on the same hardwired ethernet?

I've not had issues with wireless clients. But I'm small, it looks after
5 machines here.

Also I'm not routing this outside my local network. The server software
also runs in a docker container, on an old Microserver not really doing
much else. I should really get around to rebuilding it after it's had
more than 4 years on the go, but lots of other activities in the way.

Some folks use this across their internet connections, just the usual
game with networks. And patience with settings and the documentation.

[Daniel James]

Post by Adrian Caspersz
urbackup
https://www.urbackup.org/

Thanks, that's interesting ... and an interesting rabbit hole indeed!

It doesn't meet the present need because (as far as I can tell after a
very quick skim) it requires a client component on the machine(s) being
backed up ... but it may come in useful in future.